nexus_crossings | Blinded (with Science?)

Blinded (with Science?)

Furious, flustered and frightened, Isamu didn’t stop running until he’d reached the plaza. Out of breath, he sunk down behind one of the larger walls.

“Of all the… it is preposterous. That is what it is…” he huffed to himself, trying to gather his thoughts. “If I were actually collecting data without consent, or in direct violation of consent, that would be one thing… but a meta-analysis? A review of pre-existing literature? How can anyone object to that on ethical grounds?!”

Someone had, though. And that someone happened to be his brother’s girlfriend. Of course, it was not a question of if Minoru would find out about an argument heated enough to make the Anthean’s eyes glow. Just a question of when.

But at the moment, Isamu wasn’t even thinking about that.

“Is curiosity, in and of itself, a crime? If learning something new is satisfying or even pleasurable, does that automatically make it as reprehensible as getting high?” He pondered loud enough for any passersby to hear him. “Is science, simply because it requires empirical evidence, ideologically unethical? Where, between theory and practice, is that line drawn and who, if anyone, has the right to decide when it is crossed?!”

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The distinct sound of a cow bell is in the plaza this morning as Walter takes Gene for a walk. Gene, his large Holstein cow and lab assistant which he treated like a dog much to so many people's confusion.

"Curiosity is exciting." He's an exuberant older man but he's thoughtful and falls silent at the fast fired question. "Curiosity can have collateral damage. I... Science can bring great things, wonderful things, and.. it can destroy a world when one goes too far."

He's talking about personal experience regardless of the references the young man might be making to his own life. Petting Gene gently he gets distracted for a moment and then turns back to the young man. "Why do you ask?"

Crossing the Plaza on the way to the Grand Library, Adia pauses at the mention of science. It's a question that all scientists struggle with... well, the decent ones, anyway. But what really captures the attention is the fear and frustration in the young man's voice. What upset him so much that caused him to come here and ask his questions?

"No, curiosity isn't immoral," she agrees quietly, absently adjusting the strap of her messenger bag. There are stickers on it of places from all over Earth, like a piece of luggage that's gone through customs countless times. "But sometimes, expressing that curiosity, even if only as a thought exercise, can offend or upset others, especially if there's already been a history of harm coming from a particular line of thought. I mean, there are a lot of experiments you simply can't do because they would be reprehensible, so it's not really worth bringing up. It can come across as callous or cruel."

Weird knew of the science-minded twin because Ziggy was close to the other one, Minoru, wasn't it? The bassist wondered why Isamu was flustered and he seemed like he needed to get something off his chest, at least it looked that way. Making his way towards the scientific twin, Weird nodded in greeting.

"I don't think so, no. Where would we be if we didn't cross the line and break new boundaries? Staying in the dark never did anyone any good."

The same for science could be said about the music scene and what Ziggy was trying to achieve with his stage performances. As for crossing the line in science, well---that could be a fine line to cross. Ethics and things like that.

Rondo is pretty comfortable around Minoru, but he doesn't know Isamu well. Seeing him in this kind of mood is...probably more intimidating than the human realizes. It takes Rondo a moment to decide whether to attempt to engage with him. When he does, his voice is quiet and even.

"Um...where did the pre-existing literature come from?"

"People learn things all kinds of ways. Once the knowledge is out there, there's no point hiding it away again. I...I don't think empirical data can be ethical or unethical. It's just data. But it's important not to divorce it from its context, either."

"A couple generations ago there were a lot of nasty experiments done to mages on my world. Things like neurosurgery without consent, without anesthesia, without...acknowledging their personhood. The things that we learned from that are invaluable. To me, personally, they're invaluable, because I'm a magic student. But I'm not sure that makes it ethical. I'm not sure there's any way to make it ethical."

"Maybe there's no line. Maybe it's just a big gray area. You just can't forget where the data has been, because you're responsible for where it's going."

“Yes. Thank you!” Isamu found himself exclaiming while the other man was still talking. “Pardon.”

The fact that the older gentleman confirmed that basic truth - that curiosity was indeed exciting! - went a long way into keeping Isamu focused on everything else he had to say.

“To say I had a bit or a disagreement over such things would be putting it mildly.” He added, without going into much detail. “With someone who, I assume, would believe the collateral damage to be mandatory. But just because it can does not mean thar it will.”

That last part was as much of a question as it was a statement.

"Could.." Walter considers and then shakes his head vehemently. "There will be even when we don't cause it ourselves."

He's started to talk with one hand while the other holds the leash around Gene's neck. He's an expert in many branches of science but it's the guilt that he feels over the outcomes that he knows best.

"I once saved a life that wasn't mine to save. It has consequences and I may lose my son." His hand drops and he looks down in shame and sadness. "Curiosity can open doors we should never look through and when we do, we might step through.. or no matter where we hide it someone else will come along and open that door and walk through it."

He feels defeated but it has nothing to do with the young man he's talking too, more the hopelessness in his own life. "I hope God finds it to forgive me for what I've done."

Edited 2021-10-08 23:04 (UTC)

“A thought exercise, by its very nature, implies the hypothetical.”

Hypothetical. A word which Isamu swore, given several similar (but nowhere near as heated discussions) he’d had with the Anthean, must mot have existed on their planet.

“I do not believe I was callous or cruel.” He insisted. Still, he sighed. “But I was definitely perceived as such. With absolutely no room for debate.”

Isamu looked up. He recognized Ziggy’s bandmate from the study he conducted. Beyond some of the data points that initially sprung to mind - average heart rate of 120-155 beats per minute, could burn roughly 720 calories in an hour with a 10 lb bass guitar, etc. - he remembered the other man being one of the more reasonable musicians.

Indeed, his comments were a breath of fresh air.

“Yes! Yes, exactly!” He nodded emphatically. “Especially here. This place exists to cross those boundaries. To observe and learn about things that transcend a single world.”

Being far enough away from whatever powers an angry Anthean could use against him (an assumption that could not be verified, and he knew that, but still…), Isamu was a little calmer now than he originally was. But he was still visibly upset.

“Seeing that the idea only came into being approximately twenty minutes ago, I have not had any time to search the IRIS databases for previous research. He sighed. “I would assume, given the ethical standards set by IRIS, that they would not be deplorable in nature. But that is not something I could know before even looking.”

What Rondo was describing sounded very much like the studies Ziggy seemed to think were the only ones in existence. And it was because the topic seemed tangentially related that Isamu added, “…I had expressed curiosity about whether prophetic visions activate the same brain regions as conventional senses.”

His tone was soft, though the words alone might have seemed harsh when taken at face value. He was honestly trying to put the pieces together.

“I fail to see how a life, if you had the opportunity to save it, would not be yours to save. Or how that is connected with the fate of your son.” He looked up quizzically. “What occurred that needs to be forgiven?”

Aal's wolf ears go up at the tone or sounds of distress. She scents the air and peers around to hopefully find and help whomever it is. Though the voice sounds semi familar. "Ahem, excuse me are you in need of assistance?" She murmurs softly. Before her eyebrows go up, "Oh ello." She murmurs warmly a the young man.

Blinkingly listening raptly she swallows a little. Ah..she feels a little pang and torn for a moment reminded..Of a dear friend. Her face softens more as does her heart but also her motherly instincts rise a little. "Ah curiously..within reason nu I don't believe so." She murmurs in reply. "Ah..I suppose it depends on what one has to do in order to collect such.." She tilts her head a little to the right.

There were lines, after all being a Healer..yus context. "Ahem, I mean I know Healers and Doctors tend to follow certain guidelines and oaths..one would hope..the same would be said about scientists. " Though she knew darn well there were plenty who did not. Her fur along her spine bristles. With a wee twitch of her eye, she thinks of her pups. There were lines of other sorts she /might/ cross to protect them and others yes but she wasn't cruel or inhuman.

Astro was heading through the plaza when he heard the familiar distressed voice. He had been out on an errand and was easy to spot with his distinctive hair and NASA jacket that Tom had given him for Christmas last year. The robot trotted over through the cluster of benches, peeking around the wall and spotting a familiar face to go with the voice.

"Isamu! What's wrong? What happened?" Astro asked with concern as he approached. He didn't get a chance to spend a lot of time with Isamu or his brother Minoru, but he knew them through his associations with Aletayria, Tom and their family. He knew that Isamu was the more scientifically oriented one. The young teen robot frowned slightly as he pondered the question.

"There's nothing wrong with being curious. Learning new things is a good thing! There's also nothing inherently wrong with Science, theory, practice or otherwise. I think that line you mentioned is drawn when it gets into the realm of harming others or life in general." He didn't think that Isamu would be the type to hurt others though.

Taylor is leaning against the same wall with a sketch in her hand.

"I think it would matter on who was hurt to make the discovery." Hell she had been in an animus before, and the discovery of her ancestors' way of life within the brotherhood had been amazing, something that she wouldn't have ever witnessed without science, though when the object the doctor had been looking for in the genetic past... could be used to take the free will away from others. Well that's where Taylor drew the line and her hand touched her shark tooth as she thought about it. "When the theory and practice has the potential to destroy lives, I think that would be the line that shouldn't be crossed."

All the joking and free spirited attitude that she showed the world fell back within herself for a moment. "Sorry, little deep?"

Isamu looked up to a familiar face. Her presence startled him, but given that he’d been talking aloud to himself, it shouldn’t have. “Oh! Aal, greetings…”

He sighed.

“Yes, there are guidelines within the IRIS that must be followed, approvals that must be granted before research can begin. Getting clearance in the first place required a very lengthy background check, which I obviously passed.”

If he hadn’t, he wouldn’t have received his grants to study and work at the facility. He and Minoru wouldn’t even be in the Nexus at all.

“To some, however, either those facts do not matter, or those standards are not enough.”

As soon as Isamu saw Astro standing in front of him, he went quiet. Here, he’d just come out of a very heated debate with Tom’s child, and now he was face to face with someone who might as well fit that same definition. In the Stardust house, Astro was like family.

He was careful when he answered, “what happened… I suppose you could say that individuals have differing opinions on what constitutes harm.”

That was the most polite way to say it. And the more Isamu thought about those words, the more he realized how true it was. That was what the argument was truly about.

He looked over at the young woman, shaking his head. “No. At the moment, such depth of analysis is warranted and welcomed.”

Never mind the fact that he was so focused on his thoughts (and on getting far away from an angry Anthean with powers that, who knew what they could do…) that he didn’t even see her there when he first sat down.

Of course, Isamu did not believe any of the experiments he ever performed would hurt anybody. He followed the necessary ethical policies and procedures, and the technology available here made it far easier to observe biochemical processes non-invasively. A meta-analysis, impossible, since all the research had already been done. He would just be cataloging it and analyzing it in a new light. But apparently not everyone agreed with his assessments of what harm was, what invasiveness was, or any of it, really.

“If the line is drawn at mere potential, then how does one define potential?”

"I don't think the line would be in the hypothetical or potential... But more easy to cross in practice. I mean the stuff that I was part of, was innocent until a group who wanted power that was hidden, and well used us test subjects to find them. That was when the line was crossed." She gave a faint smile. You don't look the power hungry type though. Just curious."

“Thank you.” He huffed.

Oh, he’d just been accused of being on the same level as a dystopian tyrant or a drug addict. But people tend to say a lot of hurtful things when they’re afraid or angry. Still, he considered her example carefully.

“It sounds as though, in your situation, the scientist who began the experiment did not intend for anything harmful or unethical to occur. That it was someone else who later crossed that line.” He repeated for clarification, in case he was mistaken.

If he was correct, it only beget more questions. Some of the things that Ziggy seemed to be particularly worried about were now fresh on Isamu's mind.

“If so… Should the original scientist be held responsible for what the later group did? Should the original scientist be held responsible for what a hypothetical later group might one day do simply because the potential exists for something unethical to happen?”

"Belly and I, we created a window to look into another universe." That didn't explain everything but Walter's mind didn't usually work in linear fashion. "My research allowed me to save my son on the otherside of that window."

His instinct was to say everything because sometimes he felt the amount he needed to attone for was unending. "My research is ripping the fabric of the universe apart and others with my research, they stole it, are using my universe as a laboratory." He's getting wound up, louder and aggitated. "People from the other universe are using my research to wage war on mine. If I wouldn't have opened the door...."

"Sometimes even discussing the hypothetical can upset someone," Adia replies in a soft tone. "Especially if such an experiment may not have been hypothetical at all for a certain group of people..."

Gods know that her own world's history is rife with examples. But maybe it's not the case with this man, or this is the first time he's coming across it. "Do you feel misunderstood?" she asks gently. "I know I would be, if I were in your shoes. I'm a microbiologist," she adds, so that he knows she's speaking from experience. "Was this a professional argument or, um... more personal than that?"

Isamu listened. He could hear grief in the older man’s tone as he worked himself up. There was a war going on, and he blamed himself for it. But Isamu couldn’t help but focus on the experiment itself.

“Unless it was your research that led to the creation of all of the portals to and from the Nexus, then others have already done what you have done. It is so commonplace now that we can create personal-sized doors using our PINpoints. If the fabric of the universe was no longer intact, then this would have been the top priority within IRIS long before my acceptance there, I am absolutely certain of that.”

Isamu stopped and sighed.

“Here you are, confessing your part in possibly starting a war, and here I am, fascinated by your research and whether it provides additional insight into how the portals here actually work.” He grunted, burying his head against bent knees. “Maybe Ziggy is right!”

Isamu could not feign ignorance of the topic. While he and his brother had grown up in a time of relative peace and prosperity, their world did have its share of bad actors - past, present and likely future. But to be seen on the level as one of them? That actually was a first.

Thankfully, it wasn’t a professional argument. That would have been another matter entirely! But he still felt misunderstood. Adia could not have stated it better.

“Biochemist.” He replied softly. “And the argument was personal. It was with my brother’s… well… girlfriend.”

Isamu stuttered over several things, but the mixed genders between pronouns and titles wasn’t one of them.

“Their people… it is complicated. I mean… On the one hand, he comes from a family of brilliant scientists in multiple disciplines. On the other, yes… in his world, someone in his family was held against their will, experimented on, vivisected… I do not know all of the details. And it… may not have been an entirely isolated incident…” his voice hardened, though, when he added, “But I did not DO any of that! I did not torture anyone!”

Adia smiles briefly when Isamu replies with his field of study. It's always nice to meet a fellow scientist in the Nexus, especially when she so often feels outnumbered by those who can perform magic. Maybe they can talk shop at some point, once the main crux of the conversation has subsided.

While he explains what happened, Adia takes a seat next to him by the wall, shifting her messenger bag off to the side. She listens silently, not judging, although the reason why his brother's girlfriend(?) reacted so negatively to whatever he might have suggested stands out pretty obviously. She visibly flinches when his tone shifts so harshly, hoping that whatever she says might soften his attitude.

"No, of course you didn't. But, um... it sounds like a really sore spot for your brother's girlfriend." And kind of familiar, too, but Adia can't place where she's heard that story before. Not that it matters, this sort of thing has happened multiple times in multiple worlds, which is a depressing thought to her, so she quickly pushes it aside. "If you've had one of your own treated like that, it can be hard to trust anyone who starts discussing experiments, even hypotheticals... were you hoping to learn something about her? Sorry, him? Is that what the conversation was about?"

She smiles warmly, and her tones' kind, "Ello, laddie." She murmurs, after all, he wasn't the only one who tended to think aloud so to speak.

Her face softens a smidgen and gives him a sympathetic little smile. "Ah, I see." She murmurs after listening raptly. She had been wishing to look into the place at some point. "Naturally, smart thinking that." She murmurs perhaps a bit obvious but never the less true. Credit and blame in equal measure where such is due was her motto.

"Aye." She murmurs with a nod and tilts her head in thought. Mmh more context might be needed but..obviously not in the middle of any ol spot. She offers him her arm, "Care to walk and talk?" She murmurs softly, "Dor's watching over nap time..at the moment whilst I stretch my legs and get a few things." She informs the younger man warmly. Though she's relucent to leave her pups for long at the moment.

She'd would include those like the twins as part of their pack if they like.

She hums diplomatically at that, and glances about sniffing the air, on alert and half checking the surrounding area like she would on patrol anyways. "Not my first rodeo dealing with that..sadly some things are more universal than not. " She informs him softly and slightly wry. Though again context etc mattered. "Mmh, is this a colleague..or?" She half prompts gently. After all, she couldn't make bricks without clay or distill etc without facts.

Now was not the best time to talk about scientific collaborations, but such a topic would definitely come up later!

“He… and yes, girlfriend. He is intersex, and prefers male pronouns but female titles.” Which was something Isamu was so used to now, he hadn’t stopped to question that it might sound weird to someone hearing things out of context for the first time. “He is also… not human.”

Isamu tried to explain the conversation without too many revealing details. “We were discussing paranormal experiences, and I told him I do not believe that anything is fully beyond the realm of scientific understanding. Nor was he paranormal. He mentioned an ability that he thought would be, to a human, paranormal in nature, and I hypothetically suggested a way to observe it in the laboratory - non-invasively, of course! And things… they went downhill sharply from there.”

Isamu was so flustered, and it came out in his tone. He just started talking, and spilled everything in rapid succession.

“Suddenly, it was no longer a thought exercise… now, the human drive of curiosity is akin to drug addiction, I am just as deplorable as the people who vivisected his uncle, he threatened to tell his entire family to withhold any scientific information whatsoever from me, forever, because my morality is inherently suspect… and whatever I said next, it did not matter! I was just accused of backtracking because I did not get what I wanted. Even the concept of exploring whether there was any pre-existing research, not even on his species, but in general, to do a meta-anslysis and not even observe anything directly myself, was a crime! All research, ever, is torture! And wanting to learn anything, at all, period, about something not directly within the literal human experience, makes me a monster!”

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