Blinded (with Science?)

[itmeanscourage]

Furious, flustered and frightened, Isamu didn’t stop running until he’d reached the plaza. Out of breath, he sunk down behind one of the larger walls.

“Of all the… it is preposterous. That is what it is…” he huffed to himself, trying to gather his thoughts. “If I were actually collecting data without consent, or in direct violation of consent, that would be one thing… but a meta-analysis? A review of pre-existing literature? How can anyone object to that on ethical grounds?!”

Someone had, though. And that someone happened to be his brother’s girlfriend. Of course, it was not a question of if Minoru would find out about an argument heated enough to make the Anthean’s eyes glow. Just a question of when.

But at the moment, Isamu wasn’t even thinking about that.

“Is curiosity, in and of itself, a crime? If learning something new is satisfying or even pleasurable, does that automatically make it as reprehensible as getting high?” He pondered loud enough for any passersby to hear him. “Is science, simply because it requires empirical evidence, ideologically unethical? Where, between theory and practice, is that line drawn and who, if anyone, has the right to decide when it is crossed?!”

Comments

[dr_fringe]

The distinct sound of a cow bell is in the plaza this morning as Walter takes Gene for a walk. Gene, his large Holstein cow and lab assistant which he treated like a dog much to so many people's confusion.

"Curiosity is exciting." He's an exuberant older man but he's thoughtful and falls silent at the fast fired question. "Curiosity can have collateral damage. I... Science can bring great things, wonderful things, and.. it can destroy a world when one goes too far."

He's talking about personal experience regardless of the references the young man might be making to his own life. Petting Gene gently he gets distracted for a moment and then turns back to the young man. "Why do you ask?"

[itmeanscourage]

“Yes. Thank you!” Isamu found himself exclaiming while the other man was still talking. “Pardon.”

The fact that the older gentleman confirmed that basic truth - that curiosity was indeed exciting! - went a long way into keeping Isamu focused on everything else he had to say.

“To say I had a bit or a disagreement over such things would be putting it mildly.” He added, without going into much detail. “With someone who, I assume, would believe the collateral damage to be mandatory. But just because it can does not mean thar it will.”

That last part was as much of a question as it was a statement.

[dr_fringe]

"Could.." Walter considers and then shakes his head vehemently. "There will be even when we don't cause it ourselves."

He's started to talk with one hand while the other holds the leash around Gene's neck. He's an expert in many branches of science but it's the guilt that he feels over the outcomes that he knows best.

"I once saved a life that wasn't mine to save. It has consequences and I may lose my son." His hand drops and he looks down in shame and sadness. "Curiosity can open doors we should never look through and when we do, we might step through.. or no matter where we hide it someone else will come along and open that door and walk through it."

He feels defeated but it has nothing to do with the young man he's talking too, more the hopelessness in his own life. "I hope God finds it to forgive me for what I've done."

[chiron_survivor]

Crossing the Plaza on the way to the Grand Library, Adia pauses at the mention of science. It's a question that all scientists struggle with... well, the decent ones, anyway. But what really captures the attention is the fear and frustration in the young man's voice. What upset him so much that caused him to come here and ask his questions?

"No, curiosity isn't immoral," she agrees quietly, absently adjusting the strap of her messenger bag. There are stickers on it of places from all over Earth, like a piece of luggage that's gone through customs countless times. "But sometimes, expressing that curiosity, even if only as a thought exercise, can offend or upset others, especially if there's already been a history of harm coming from a particular line of thought. I mean, there are a lot of experiments you simply can't do because they would be reprehensible, so it's not really worth bringing up. It can come across as callous or cruel."

[itmeanscourage]

“A thought exercise, by its very nature, implies the hypothetical.”

Hypothetical. A word which Isamu swore, given several similar (but nowhere near as heated discussions) he’d had with the Anthean, must mot have existed on their planet.

“I do not believe I was callous or cruel.” He insisted. Still, he sighed. “But I was definitely perceived as such. With absolutely no room for debate.”

[chiron_survivor]

"Sometimes even discussing the hypothetical can upset someone," Adia replies in a soft tone. "Especially if such an experiment may not have been hypothetical at all for a certain group of people..."

Gods know that her own world's history is rife with examples. But maybe it's not the case with this man, or this is the first time he's coming across it. "Do you feel misunderstood?" she asks gently. "I know I would be, if I were in your shoes. I'm a microbiologist," she adds, so that he knows she's speaking from experience. "Was this a professional argument or, um... more personal than that?"

[wherewere_thespiders]

Weird knew of the science-minded twin because Ziggy was close to the other one, Minoru, wasn't it? The bassist wondered why Isamu was flustered and he seemed like he needed to get something off his chest, at least it looked that way. Making his way towards the scientific twin, Weird nodded in greeting.

"I don't think so, no. Where would we be if we didn't cross the line and break new boundaries? Staying in the dark never did anyone any good."

The same for science could be said about the music scene and what Ziggy was trying to achieve with his stage performances. As for crossing the line in science, well---that could be a fine line to cross. Ethics and things like that.

[itmeanscourage]

Isamu looked up. He recognized Ziggy’s bandmate from the study he conducted. Beyond some of the data points that initially sprung to mind - average heart rate of 120-155 beats per minute, could burn roughly 720 calories in an hour with a 10 lb bass guitar, etc. - he remembered the other man being one of the more reasonable musicians.

Indeed, his comments were a breath of fresh air.

“Yes! Yes, exactly!” He nodded emphatically. “Especially here. This place exists to cross those boundaries. To observe and learn about things that transcend a single world.”

[wherewere_thespiders]

"Can I ask what this is all about? As in why are you asking about all of this?"

The bassist what had brought this on in the first place and knew Isamu was one to question things and bring in his scientific theory wherever he thought it was necessary. Most of what the young man said went over the head of most of the rock stars. With Weird he tended to speak less and listen more.

"This place does that. Aliens and creatures alike. You seem a bit put out though, mate."

Weird watched and learnt.

[coffee_elf]

Rondo is pretty comfortable around Minoru, but he doesn't know Isamu well. Seeing him in this kind of mood is...probably more intimidating than the human realizes. It takes Rondo a moment to decide whether to attempt to engage with him. When he does, his voice is quiet and even.

"Um...where did the pre-existing literature come from?"

"People learn things all kinds of ways. Once the knowledge is out there, there's no point hiding it away again. I...I don't think empirical data can be ethical or unethical. It's just data. But it's important not to divorce it from its context, either."

"A couple generations ago there were a lot of nasty experiments done to mages on my world. Things like neurosurgery without consent, without anesthesia, without...acknowledging their personhood. The things that we learned from that are invaluable. To me, personally, they're invaluable, because I'm a magic student. But I'm not sure that makes it ethical. I'm not sure there's any way to make it ethical."

"Maybe there's no line. Maybe it's just a big gray area. You just can't forget where the data has been, because you're responsible for where it's going."

[itmeanscourage]

Being far enough away from whatever powers an angry Anthean could use against him (an assumption that could not be verified, and he knew that, but still…), Isamu was a little calmer now than he originally was. But he was still visibly upset.

“Seeing that the idea only came into being approximately twenty minutes ago, I have not had any time to search the IRIS databases for previous research. He sighed. “I would assume, given the ethical standards set by IRIS, that they would not be deplorable in nature. But that is not something I could know before even looking.”

What Rondo was describing sounded very much like the studies Ziggy seemed to think were the only ones in existence. And it was because the topic seemed tangentially related that Isamu added, “…I had expressed curiosity about whether prophetic visions activate the same brain regions as conventional senses.”

[coffee_elf]

"I don't know anything about IRIS." Rondo shrugs. "I've heard of it but that's it. Ethical ideas vary from world to world, though. I wouldn't expect a human to understand the magical ethics of the world I come from--well, at least, not a human from a world without magic, and even at that rate there would be cultural differences."

The elf scratches his head and looks uncertain, but for whatever it's worth, he's not upset or taking any of this personally. "Yeah, see, that's...that's the kind of thing you could study ethically, with voluntary participation. If you could get someone to do magic while in an MRI or something. We've had a few studies like that where I'm from. It's still tricky, because you can't move while in the scanner, so they're not very conclusive. Plus, when you talk about prophetic visions, the recipient doesn't always control when and how they get that kind of thing, so that makes it harder to track. Clairvoyance isn't common where I'm from; we're more like elementalists."

"But can also study that kind of thing really not ethically, and when that's happened to a group of people before, you can't blame them for being leery. If a scientist on my world proposes any kind of study on the brains of mages, there are...I think the approval process takes about a decade and it has to go before the High Council, which is honestly supposed to discourage people from trying. And that's for elves. Any offworlder that suggested it would get their visitor status revoked and put on the first transport back to their home colony, I think."

"Did you, um, express your curiosity to someone who had a personal experience with...something bad?"

[delphicbooksandbaubles]

Aal's wolf ears go up at the tone or sounds of distress. She scents the air and peers around to hopefully find and help whomever it is. Though the voice sounds semi familar. "Ahem, excuse me are you in need of assistance?" She murmurs softly. Before her eyebrows go up, "Oh ello." She murmurs warmly a the young man.

Blinkingly listening raptly she swallows a little. Ah..she feels a little pang and torn for a moment reminded..Of a dear friend. Her face softens more as does her heart but also her motherly instincts rise a little. "Ah curiously..within reason nu I don't believe so." She murmurs in reply. "Ah..I suppose it depends on what one has to do in order to collect such.." She tilts her head a little to the right.

There were lines, after all being a Healer..yus context. "Ahem, I mean I know Healers and Doctors tend to follow certain guidelines and oaths..one would hope..the same would be said about scientists. " Though she knew darn well there were plenty who did not. Her fur along her spine bristles. With a wee twitch of her eye, she thinks of her pups. There were lines of other sorts she /might/ cross to protect them and others yes but she wasn't cruel or inhuman.

[itmeanscourage]

Isamu looked up to a familiar face. Her presence startled him, but given that he’d been talking aloud to himself, it shouldn’t have. “Oh! Aal, greetings…”

He sighed.

“Yes, there are guidelines within the IRIS that must be followed, approvals that must be granted before research can begin. Getting clearance in the first place required a very lengthy background check, which I obviously passed.”

If he hadn’t, he wouldn’t have received his grants to study and work at the facility. He and Minoru wouldn’t even be in the Nexus at all.

“To some, however, either those facts do not matter, or those standards are not enough.”

[delphicbooksandbaubles]

She smiles warmly, and her tones' kind, "Ello, laddie." She murmurs, after all, he wasn't the only one who tended to think aloud so to speak.

Her face softens a smidgen and gives him a sympathetic little smile. "Ah, I see." She murmurs after listening raptly. She had been wishing to look into the place at some point. "Naturally, smart thinking that." She murmurs perhaps a bit obvious but never the less true. Credit and blame in equal measure where such is due was her motto.

"Aye." She murmurs with a nod and tilts her head in thought. Mmh more context might be needed but..obviously not in the middle of any ol spot. She offers him her arm, "Care to walk and talk?" She murmurs softly, "Dor's watching over nap time..at the moment whilst I stretch my legs and get a few things." She informs the younger man warmly. Though she's relucent to leave her pups for long at the moment.

She'd would include those like the twins as part of their pack if they like.

She hums diplomatically at that, and glances about sniffing the air, on alert and half checking the surrounding area like she would on patrol anyways. "Not my first rodeo dealing with that..sadly some things are more universal than not. " She informs him softly and slightly wry. Though again context etc mattered. "Mmh, is this a colleague..or?" She half prompts gently. After all, she couldn't make bricks without clay or distill etc without facts.

[onward_and_upward]

Astro was heading through the plaza when he heard the familiar distressed voice. He had been out on an errand and was easy to spot with his distinctive hair and NASA jacket that Tom had given him for Christmas last year. The robot trotted over through the cluster of benches, peeking around the wall and spotting a familiar face to go with the voice.

"Isamu! What's wrong? What happened?" Astro asked with concern as he approached. He didn't get a chance to spend a lot of time with Isamu or his brother Minoru, but he knew them through his associations with Aletayria, Tom and their family. He knew that Isamu was the more scientifically oriented one. The young teen robot frowned slightly as he pondered the question.

"There's nothing wrong with being curious. Learning new things is a good thing! There's also nothing inherently wrong with Science, theory, practice or otherwise. I think that line you mentioned is drawn when it gets into the realm of harming others or life in general." He didn't think that Isamu would be the type to hurt others though.

[itmeanscourage]

As soon as Isamu saw Astro standing in front of him, he went quiet. Here, he’d just come out of a very heated debate with Tom’s child, and now he was face to face with someone who might as well fit that same definition. In the Stardust house, Astro was like family.

He was careful when he answered, “what happened… I suppose you could say that individuals have differing opinions on what constitutes harm.”

That was the most polite way to say it. And the more Isamu thought about those words, the more he realized how true it was. That was what the argument was truly about.

[onward_and_upward]

Astro frowned a little, leaning against the wall next to Isamu and looking up at him. "What are you working on that would cause such upset?" He asked finally, studying the other with large dark eyes. He was the concerned more than judgmental type. "You said something about a meta-analysis?" He grinned a little sheepishly. "Couldn't help but hear you when I was on the other side of the plaza." His super hearing was a bit legendary, whether someone was speaking with a raised voice or not.

[sharktoothtotem]

Taylor is leaning against the same wall with a sketch in her hand.

"I think it would matter on who was hurt to make the discovery." Hell she had been in an animus before, and the discovery of her ancestors' way of life within the brotherhood had been amazing, something that she wouldn't have ever witnessed without science, though when the object the doctor had been looking for in the genetic past... could be used to take the free will away from others. Well that's where Taylor drew the line and her hand touched her shark tooth as she thought about it. "When the theory and practice has the potential to destroy lives, I think that would be the line that shouldn't be crossed."

All the joking and free spirited attitude that she showed the world fell back within herself for a moment. "Sorry, little deep?"

[itmeanscourage]

He looked over at the young woman, shaking his head. “No. At the moment, such depth of analysis is warranted and welcomed.”

Never mind the fact that he was so focused on his thoughts (and on getting far away from an angry Anthean with powers that, who knew what they could do…) that he didn’t even see her there when he first sat down.

Of course, Isamu did not believe any of the experiments he ever performed would hurt anybody. He followed the necessary ethical policies and procedures, and the technology available here made it far easier to observe biochemical processes non-invasively. A meta-analysis, impossible, since all the research had already been done. He would just be cataloging it and analyzing it in a new light. But apparently not everyone agreed with his assessments of what harm was, what invasiveness was, or any of it, really.

“If the line is drawn at mere potential, then how does one define potential?”

[sharktoothtotem]

"I don't think the line would be in the hypothetical or potential... But more easy to cross in practice. I mean the stuff that I was part of, was innocent until a group who wanted power that was hidden, and well used us test subjects to find them. That was when the line was crossed." She gave a faint smile. You don't look the power hungry type though. Just curious."

[skeksisheretic]

"Curiosity is a good thing," says the Heretic, "but there is always a line. There is a Skeksis I knew called skekTek, the Scientist. In the beginning, when I first knew him, his experiments were driven by a sincere quest for knowledge. He wanted to follow in the footsteps of our original selves and - but this curiosity and our Emperor's orders increasingly drove him to hideous things."

He indicates the nail on his skull.

"The last I heard of him, the Emperor is using his talents to create war-machines and drain the life essence of our planet's original inhabitants to keep themselves alive. skekTek is brilliant, and I once had respect for his genius, but his brilliance has been twisted. You don't seem like a bad sort. Does somebody think you are abusing science?"

[itmeanscourage]

Isamu glanced up at the Skeksis perched in front of him.

“If thinking hypothetically about a potential experiment because you’re curious about an observable phenomenon in a species other than your own is considered grounds for abuse, then yes.” He grunted, but sighed as he leaned back against the wall.

“My apologies. It was quite a heated argument.” He paused for a moment, not sure if he should continue at first, but he added, “it was with my brother’s girlfriend… which has its own set of implications beyond an attack on my character.”

Continuation (for Ziggy and co.)

[itmeanscourage]

It had been a couple of weeks since the argument and Isamu’s crowdsourcing of ideas in the plaza. The shared perceptions were valuable, as was a night of binge drinking at the Angel’s Retreat followed by a very hungover conversation with Minoru. Finally, Isamu understood exactly what happened. He also knew what he needed to do to make it right.

This was what took the longest.

But at last, Isamu was ready to approach the Anthean. He was not in the Nexus, unfortunately, as the tour was still going on - and had picked up enough opening acts to consider it a festival now. So, things were a going to be a little more complicated.

But he had Minoru by his side as he approached the venue with a parcel tucked safely under his arm. There were, of course, fans already lined up outside as far as they eye could see.

“Hey guys!” Minoru ignored the line completely and flagged down some of the familiar faces of the road crew. “Ziggy and the others inside yet? We need some passes.”

Isamu’s grip tightened on the parcel. He nodded sheepishly. “Please.”

[suomi_thunder]

Aarne was always out with fans when he had time, he and Rik both were out in the madness of the group of people. Though, Aarne was the one with the height to see the twins through the crowd. The Fin didn't think anything of their appearance but did make his way toward them.

"They're with me." He mentions which gets the security to let the two young men in. "Come on!"

He's glad to see both of them. "Are you looking for Ziggy?" He notices the package and that meant a gift in the drummer's mind, and of course his first thought is the singer and partner.